Hey,

I apologize for naming China rather than Thailand as Seyta's source. I wish I had the time right now to give you my full diatribe. I'll get to it over the weekend. But, quickly,
Rebecca Pearcy's Queen Bee is a local business.
Adam Arnold is a local business. They make everything here.
Duchess is a local storefront.
Sameunderneath is a local storefront.
They run import export businesses. They represent an outside interest.
They're valid in that right. But, I'll stick to my guns about the local distribution of wealth through wage. It doesn't matter that someone in Thailand is making a living wage in Thailand.

On the point of equality:

A personm from Thailand cannot come here and have their daily wage (even if it's a good one) carry them very far. In fact they really can't even visit here. An American's wage spends forever in Thailand. The economies are different. The shitty national minimum wage that we've established here is what Americans have decided can be the least humane wage to pay a human. When a company exports labor, they choose to lower the bar. They choose to pay less than agreed upon humane standards.

I don't really care too much about that topic. Humane treatment for everyone. Let the U.S. take care of the U.S. Let Thailand take care of Thailand. Let China take care of China. We are not taking care of our own family.

My original main point was to point out that if we adjust prices (to reflect local work.) Then we make a new market that lasts into the future.
My shoes are sold to very few people. But, those people pay a high price for the quality. And, it works. I live in a beautiful house, and take care of a family. I don't have any savings. I won't be opening a second location. But, I make a living. And, It's honest. So does Adam Arnold.

Seyta makes this point perfectly. A suit made entirely locally would cost more money. So charge more money. Make the market. Employ more locals. Isn't that the whole point of our revolutionary small business world of Portland.

Taco Bell is cheap.
Yet..
Mississippi's "Por Que No" has no problem selling $9 margaritas. It's local. It works.

One of part of Stumptown Coffee's whole concept is that they're more expensive, because they pay more for their product. That's one of the reason's they succeeded in the first place.

Hardwork is hard. Patience is even harder. They're two separate things.

I'm talking about a movement. A brave new world where people live in their local market. And, take care of themselves, their neighbors. Duchess, Sameunderneath, Nau... I'm glad they employ some local people (designers) I'm glad they spend their wages locally. But, why is everyone turning a blind eye to the real issue?

It's about the future. It's not about driving a car with a big decal with my business' name on it.

We're talking about a small scale change that will be hard and long time coming. One price tag at a time, we will normalize the gap between wages and price. All together now...

Love,

Donovan Skirvin
www.esecarnal.com
503.442.8043
donovan@sacarnal.com

Um, I work at a local business constructing locally-produced goods, and even though I love my job, I certainly don't make enough there to vacation in Thailand. I have also spent the past three years making a line of undergarments constructed locally, at home, by me. Even so, a movement that requires me to take sides against other local business owners is not one I'm particularly interested in joining. There's room in this town for all of us.

Thailand is famous for their fine suits. Do we have to stop drinking the occasional bottle of Italian wine too? I am all for buying locally and I avoid entering nationwide chains. I never get fast food and have completely swore off Home Depot and Target. I support local artists, buy local food, love seeing a restaurants menu boast local ingredients. But the idea of never getting any of the wonderful things that come from afar, ever... art, wine, and yes, even a Thailand suit, that doesn't sound ideal to me either. I appreciate your vision of a brave new world and the staunch integrity and concern it portrays but I'm not sure I would want to live in your utopia. I don't think I could afford it either. There are great things being made in Portland but I don't want to live in a complete bubble. I believe we can all work to improve our spending habits and support our local businesses without having to entirely give up the occasional specialty from abroad. I agree with Anne, there's room in this town for all.

Right now in this country, it is not possible to locally manufacture the goods from Duchess, Sameunderneath, and NAU at a cost that is something people will purchase. Not only from a cost stand point, but the capacity of a US business to manufacture. I stand behind this statement. I have worked both at an international trading company (the one that currently imports Sameunderneaths goods), and now a local (pdx) apparel manufacturing facility. When you have enough demand and not enough product, overseas is the option. There are good factories and bad. Not every factory, or tailor is a sweatshop.

While it is nice to want everyone in one place to support one another, that is not the current market place. It is unfair to think so and point fingers at others. Until the entire economy changes, this is the way it will be.

I have a line. I sew it all myself, to keep things local. But I don't look down upon others who enter the global marketplace. All 3 of those companies are known for being pretty ethical in the apparel industry. Most large apparel corporations don't give a shit, and bottom dollar is their only concern. When people stop getting mad about paying more then $20 for a pair of jeans, then maybe we'll see a change.

In response to Donovan Skirvin:

1. I am guessing from the comments here (and here: http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/) that I do not think I am assuming too much when I say that it doesn’t seem as if anyone in this forum is interested in the “full diatribe.”

2. My business is a local business. A storefront, for that matter is a business. I am not a middle-person. I use my developed skills and interest in history to consult with each client personally for around two hours, educating them about clothing history and working with them to design their ideal suit. Then I take their measurements and use my patternmaking skills to develop patterns that will fit them correctly. Without my local work and skills, my business would not exist. I do not represent an outside interest. I represent my own interests, which are the interest in creating my own business, the interest in old-fashioned or refined esthetics and personal expression, and the provision of these things at a reasonable price. Clearly, these are not your interests. So what?

3. I would argue that is does matter that someone in Thailand is making a living wage in Thailand. I don’t understand how you can so cavalierly assign importance to people based on geography. Because of our common interests and mutual respect, I feel much closer to my tailors in Thailand than I feel to the guy I saw today tearing down MLK in an SUV with a Bush bumper sticker. Maybe you should reconsider your vision of community, or, if not that, maybe you should expend your energy trying to dismantle the global communication systems like tv and the internet that are allowing us to know about great artisans in Thailand. Or, maybe it does make sense to “start at home” by focusing your rage on local businesses when you’re so passionate about the local economy…?

4. Food is cheap. Suits are expensive. I, and most Portlanders who care about such things, can handle the difference of a $1 taco from Taco Bell and a $3 taco from Por Que No. People in Portland can afford to pay a few dollars more for local things, and do. My business would not exist if I charged significantly more. I would not want it to. I do not want to charge more; I want to provide reasonably priced custom suits. I do not have a problem working with excellent craftsmen in Thailand. I am not proclaiming to be a local handmade suit-maker. I am proclaiming to be a proponent of a better esthetic, custom clothing, and a champion of quality. I will support any local tailor who makes great suits that cost thousands of dollars. They might be able to survive here; I don’t know. But, that person is not me. There is room for all of us.

5. Although it might seem like there are no reasons why we would have similar interests, there actually are: While you are apparently very passionate and narrow-minded about local economy, I am equally as passionate and narrow-minded about esthetics. I hate it when people wear ugly clothes and I want people to wear more suits. We are both elitists. Yay! The difference between us is that I would never try to damage a local business by proclaiming that their products are ugly and I recognize that these things are a matter of opinion. Your opinion has no place in my business.

6. I do not know anything about Nau or Sameunderneath (which is why I am not going to say anything about them). But, I find your choice to single out Duchess as the one to throw down about very confusing. The products of Duchess and Ese Carnal are potentially very complementary and seem to reference history in a reverent and similar way. I am doing a lot to help people realize that custom shopping is a great experience. Encouraging custom shopping is a great way to minimize gross global retail manufacturing. In the custom market, nothing is to waste. Only demand is supplied in the most basic and personal way. I would not be surprised if customers have patronized your business because they had a great experience with custom clothing at my business first. It was irresponsible and counter-productive of you to publicly espouse your offence at my business not following your utopian dream.

I will not be writing any more on this subject, but felt that since this discussion began publicly, I should redress your response publicly as well. I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I, for one, will not be supporting them.

Sincerely,
Seyta Selter
Duchess, Clothier
www.duchessclothier.com
seyta@duchessclothier.com

I find it unfortunate that Donovan's original letter felt the need to include Seyta and her company. I truly do not think Duchess is the problem at hand.
Her inclusion halted a conversation I would have liked to seen about lines such as Sameunderneath and Nau.
These are both "local" brands that seem poised, and determined, to continue to grow into very large companies. They are both being touted lavishly with labels such as "sustainable" and "ethical". And they both produce overseas. This is pretty much the extent of my knowledge of them and I would like to know more.
I am very skeptical of companies that mass-produce goods in poorer countries. Years of studying effects of consumerism and worker rights abuses lead me no other choice. Companies always claim that "their inspection and contractual policies with the factories are trustworthy". Hell, the Gap has claimed the same thing for a decade now while a study by the NLC just last year in Jordan showed them violating everyone of their own rules.
I am not trying to get on a high horse and I know these companies are not the Gap (yet at least). I completely support their use of more sustainable products, but you can NOT call your company sustainable if you give your fabric choices more attention than the actual workers making your product. You most certainly can not call yourself ethical.
There are a lot of sweet talkin' words on Sameunderneath's website without any specifics on how and where their clothing is produced. I think those specifics are necessary, especially when they are one of the headliners for this upcoming Portland Fashion Week with the theme being "ethical".

FYI, most companies do visits of the factories (overseas or not) they use. The apparel industry is not pretty, the manufacturing end anyways. I would put money on a bet that NAU, Sameunderneath, and Duchess, have been to where their product is made.

I would also guess that sameunderneath and nau have visited the factories that their products are produced. Though I don't think it means much. It is easy to put a happier face on a place when someone comes to visit.

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I'm a little surprised. I think there's some confusion regarding what I've written. I'll give it another go here. Either way, we're all working, none of us have the time to keep this up. I'm not here to fight anyone. I think if you look over what I've written you might see how I've acquiesced the validity of all named parties. But, to restate in direct terms, I've sat down and written this...Just in case there's still confusion, I fly the white flag of surrender.

Ese Carnal is an experiment. As are all the other designers, makers, sellers, importers, exporters, & businesses here in our very exciting community of doers.

We've proposed a model for sustainability. And, we've made it work. FOR US.
It's important to understand that we believe all things have their place, at least in moderation.

Our hats are off to Duchess, Nau, and Sameunderneath. And, if it isn't clear in the statements that I've made. I mean to make it clear here now. These companies are doing things that are exciting, fresh, and totally respectable.
I originally wrote my letter to the Mercury because I wanted to hear a little dialogue about the subject of local (North American) labor vs. exported labor. I think we often get caught up in 'white guilt' issues about humane treatment of people. And, we let go of what would be a healthy amount of nationalism. I do think it's important for localities to try and take care of their own. It's hard to imagine other countries taking care of our labor sectors the way that we take care of theirs. That's mostly our own fault though (workers & consumers). I still think it's worth talking about and working on.

Getting back to that idea about things in moderation...

There's only so much that can be done by small companies and individuals. We can't all be working on the same project.I really do believe that a big pool of diversified philosophies is what is needed to solve these various issues that face the industry of fashion.

And so,

I would say that someone has to stand up for the high quality found in Thailand's suits.

Duchess' point regarding the high quality of a Thailand suit is the perfect answer to my rant. Part of my own process involves using a pretty intense industrial adhesive. I use it, because it's the best. It's a big part of my standard of quality. And, I regard its negative effects to be worth the benefit. I'm the first to admit that it goes against the 'green'-ness of our company.

I think that finding high quality manufacturing in the states is nearly impossible when it comes to many things. And, I completely understand going outside of the country for higher standards of quality.

Case in point:

Intermodal (local bag manufacturers) design bags whose leather is sourced in Italy (I believe.) They chose this factory for their incredible processing (which is nearly harmless to the environment.) A+!
___

I originally learned about Duchess' practice of labor exporting through a mutual client, who found out their Duchess suit had been manufactured elsewhere after the suit had been completed. That person immediately contacted me and asked that I 'prove' to them that I wouldn't do the same with the shoes they'd ordered from me. I should've done more research. But, I was told that Seyta used Chinese labor. I mentioned this in my letter because it seemed to go with the theme. I didn't think I was betraying any secrets. Nor, did I think I was accusing anyone of being deceptive.

__
And so,

People have to champion the higher standard foreign factories. In my utopian dream, I wish that we could cover all the ground, jump forward to the future, in minutes. I'd love for us to have arrived in a time where the market has been balanced locally and globally. The realization of my dream is a long way off in the broad scheme of things.

Nau and Sameunderneath are doing a great thing by finding places that are 'ethical' and 'green' and 'affordable'. And, if that can only be found outside of the U.S. that's not their fault. I applaud them too. in fact, the lessons our manufacturers can learn from those foreign ethical factories may be the ones that save us.

Realization of the utoptian dream may mean that cost of living in the States need to be adjusted. Maybe real estate professionals, government subsidies, controlled markets, etc. can all participate in making a vibrant manufacturing sector in the states. In the mean time, kudos to those who try to keep couture afloat by compromising.

__

I really wanted to see a dialogue start. I really think these points are still valid to consider. We won't always have cheap ways to transport goods. The carbon economy isn't going to last forever. It may last until our generation is geriatric, but we have to be responsible to the future (I think.)

Ese Carnal was started with the exclusive purpose of finding a way to take care of my family (and, by proxy 'my people') I wanted to be able to provide living wages for people that I knew. All of this, while doing what I love.

That turned out to be really difficult. And, to make it work, I had to find ways to cut costs. That's truly what made me the 'recycler' that I am today. I like being green. I'm proud of that. But, the biggest motivator for me, is to save money.. Which is passed on to people who I employ. I'm not all-the-way there. I have tons of work to do. I make many compromises in my life to make this thing work. And, I have high prices.

A great deal of the work that I've done to make my company 'successful' is in market building. I've put a lot of effort into finding people who can pay the high price I need to balance my books.

That being said, there's a ton of regular restaurant working boys and girls that wear my shoes. And, they didn't have to break themselves to pay for it. Ese Carnal has some dynamic concepts behind it. And, one of them is in our pricing.

We have a lot of unorthodox doings, that help bring us closer to living that utopian dream. That's what we do.. We try to prove these 'theories' by doing what we do. And, we think it's okay to offer people the chance to do the same. Through Dialogue, Information sharing. We hope it helps.

We were hoping to keep this thing a secret a little bit longer. But, Ese Carnal will be going public with a 'contest' of sorts. We're going to be offering five thousand U.S. dollars to anyone who can pitch us a true humane, green, ethical business. The 5k is to be used to start up the business. There are rules. We'll post the whole thing on our site in the next few weeks. Maybe we can get a mention of it in the Mercury when it's up.

__

Further notes:

I'm not being sarcastic here. So, calm down.

I think that as much as I come off as a utopian dreamer, I'm pretty realistic. I'm mostly concerned with the happenings of my day to day life. I don't have any aspirations to control anyone's doings but my own. I do like to talk about things. I do think it's important to restore the U.S. economy. And, I do have ideas about how to make that work.
One of the many results of being alive at all, is that we disappoint and offend people. That's even truer when you're in business.
I'll pre-emptively point out that there are flaws in my business plan. There are stretches of time where I get too little orders. There are times where I get too many. In the end it all balances out. The sum total is success. But, it's not often comfortable. And, there are a few people out there who've suffered long waits at the hands of my drive to do things according to my principles of quality. In my own life, I think that things that are hard won are often worth all their hardship. But, I don't expect other people to feel the same way.

There's one more meandering point I keep thinking of...

Nike started off as a little company. Importing shoes that were designed here, and manufactured outside of the U.S. I think it would be hard to see a big difference between a lot of Portland's little businesses today, and that little enterprise Phil was working on. That early form of Nike can be thought of (at least somewhat) as a model Portland small business, different only stylistically.

I've always had a lot of respect for what Mr. Knight did. And, I think Nike continues to be impressive.

Portland is where a lot of Nike's money falls. I've sold shoes to their employees. And, wether your an indy designer, or a bartender, Nike money has probably ended up in your wallet too.

Nike participates in huge recycling programs. They even design huge recycling programs.

Nike makes charitable donations. Big ones, that make big differences.

Nike saves money by exporting labor. If they didn't, a pair of dunks might cost nearly a thousand dollars.

Their money means a lot to all the markets wherein they participate, global & domestic.

A huge company has the ability to make huge impacts. Those can be negative. Those can be positive too. When you put that much human brain power together, you end up with a fantastic amount of synergy.

I'd like to see someone break it down into a formula. I'd like to be able to calculate the negative impact Nike ends up having after balancing it with the positive. I'm willing to bet the sum total is neutral if not positive.

But, can you see what I mean?

...designers spend their money locally...
...saving customers money...
...responsibility to the environment...

Those are all things that come from exchanges I've had with local companies, justifying their labor export.

Is there a huge difference between Nike & Sameunderneath. And, regardless, is that so bad?

The most responsible shoppers I know are employed by either Nike or Adidas. It takes money to be responsible. It's expensive. That's the kind of thing that makes me wish everyone had the chance to make money here. A better market. My utopian dream.

Okay. Enough.

Love,
Donovan Skirvin.. Ese Carnal Co.

It is nice to see our self righteous cobbler friend step back from the hard-line slander of his first letter. However, while Mr. Skirvin's ads - I mean letters - certainly must have involved a great deal of navel gazing, they reveal glaring self-serving ignorance. If Mr. Skirvin walks around living the ideals of his preachy ads, he must be collapse at night completely exhausted from the day's moral dilemmas. Where did the chip in your Macbook Pro come from, Donovan? How did you sleep at night before you could afford to put locally produced fair-trade wasabi on your unagi roll? But kudos on finding lots of Junior executives at Nike to make shoes for. If your lucky maybe someday they'll let you shine Phil's shoes, which I'm sure are also handmade, like mine, in Italy.

Christian, your mom is ready to play another game of magic, so get out of the basement, try and win back your balls.
As for the rest of this debate, to me, it's clear, Duchess is a local storefront with a local designer and seamstress, that's great, and she is a local woman, which I support, and she is trying hard, and it seems to be working. I fully support that. However, she does export her designs and patterns and historical knowledge to Thailand, and hails being a member in a community. A community she does not speak the language of, live in the same economy of, live the same. Just because I buy a pound of Ethiopian coffee, I do not feel like I share something with the people of Ethiopia, I do not feel like a member of their communtity at all. I am probably, actually, ripping them off. I guess I am fine with that...Back to Duchess, Seyta hires a family of tailors who may or may not follow the business practices they said that they do, or that she hopes that they do. She has handed over her local design, oversees. Maybe they do..She is part of a community that she is, frankly ripping off. And my vision of community is not one where your neighbor tries to get you do things for free or cheap. That is unfair. Someone from Thailand can not come here with their money, with the wage that Seyta pays and get dinner, a whore, a taxi ride, a cocktail, some clothes,some drugs, a massage, a beach front hotel room. People I know from Portland have gone to Thailand and gotten all of these things and have remarked things like "You could live there for a year for like 30$!" So, Seyta is benefiting more. Fine. No problem, that's a little thing called Capitalism. However, she can not claim to be more than a local designer, which is impressive or a local storefront. The same way I would not call Built By Wendy's Wendy Mullen 'local' in New York. And I really don't think that emotional language like 'local' and 'sustainable' and 'saving resources' can be applied to these businesses. I wonder, if Seyta, if they were so inclined looked into how much it would cost if locals, even using some help interns made their suits. Does Adam Arnold charge THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS for a suit? Does Seaplane? I hardly think so. I bought a t-shirt from Seaplane from his line for 30$. How does he do it?! He's just pocketing less money, would be my guess, keeping his costs lower?My friend is making clothing for 2.20$ per piece in Portland, these pieces take at least an hour to make and these are pieces that sell for many times the price. We have a sweatshop right here in Portland!
I think you all should not be fighting, but working together, working on our community here, that is clearly lacking cohesion, then spread our sense of community, ethically, and using the correct, not emotional language for these things.
Best of luck to all local designers, workers, makers, storefront owners. Thank you for your hard work and for making Portland really unique, and for offering me choice on how to spend my money. I applaud all of your success.

I also agree with John, this should really be a conversation about Sameunderneath....

Here's a quote from a Portland Tribune article on Duchess:

"

After making the selections, a customer must make an appointment for extensive measurements. Next, Selter sends the order to her tailor, a resource so precious she refuses to disclose it and will say only, “It took a lot to find a tailor to work with — a private tailor. It’s a family business that has been making English-style suits since the 1920s.”

"
I also know someone who purchased a suit. They believed all the work was being done by Duchess here in Portland.

If Donovan is so local, prove it. Where are you soles manufactured? Where is the leather from? What was the cow fed? What about the laces? Is there a place in Portland that makes laces? I would like to know. What about the dye and sewing material? Where is your office or manufacturing facility? What is it built of? Where do you get your power? Water? Do you walk to work or drive? If you drive, do you make your own fuel from local oil?
My point is that no one business can be 100% local, so quit picking on a fellow entrepreneurs who is also trying to feed herself and family. That is childish.
I would love to have a pair of handmade shoes, but after reading your diatribes above, I will not be calling you as I feel you would judge me because I have Banana Republic underwear or something.

As a Portland designer and manufacturer, every garment that I make is made in Portland by me. When the time comes to hire additional help, it will be done locally. I want to be as sustainable as I can possibly be, but my main moral dilemma comes from finding truly sustainable materials. Hemps, organic cottons and bamboos, I initially thought were the answer. I can buy them from a local fabric store, but most of these textiles have been produced overseas. I could use all recycled scraps of fabric, but this limits everything I make to being "one of a kinds." That's not necessarily such a bad thing, but it certainly slows the production process and prevents one dress being available in different sizes.

As far as I know, there are no available textiles that are being produced in Portland using fibers that are grown here. I truly wish that there were, but being made in the USA is as close as I can get. And even then I'm pretty much just limiting myself to pretty basic organic cottons. If any one knows of other truly fantastic USA made textiles, please do tell.

I realize I can't save the world by the clothes that I make. But a part of me almost feels that the people expect that. That some critic is waiting to pick every aspect apart. It becomes a tremendous headache and sometimes makes me forget why I wanted to make clothes in the first place.

I think we certainly need to all make as much effort as we can to support our own economy and to be sustainable, but I think there is much currently lacking in order to do so entirely 100%. It just isn't a possibility right now, unless people would like to have a dress made from my lawn clippings.

What is going on here? Are any of you reading these posts? You all seem to be having different conversations. Ese carnal encourages local labor, says it costs more, says it doesn't always work, asks if we can talk about it.
Um. Duchess doesn't want to shop at Ese Carnal because they don't want to talk about labor practice.
Um. A seamstress can't afford to go to Thailand.
Um. It's bad to make money.
Um. It's good to make money.
Um. It's ok to buy chinese labor if you visit the factory.
Um. The west is populated by super geniuses who sell ideas.
Um. The east is populated by people that might be lucky enough to work for a nice company.

Then there's a whole bunch self-congratulating confused piper-inners.

What happens if nobody makes anything?

In the end, it sounds like most of you agree that there's a place for Duchess, Ese Carnal, Sameunderneath, etc. here in Portland. It even sounds like you might all like eachother.

Portland, I actually miss your huge loveable bubble.

Wow.

Go get a cocktail together...truly.